Fishbuners’ $2Bn Impact: Building Australia’s Startup Ecosystem w/ Martin Karafilis, Fishburners

SCS:

Alright, Martin Karafilis, CEO of Fishburners, serial entrepreneur, investor, and best selling author. Congratulations, my friend. We just high-fived on that one. tell us where we are today with Fishburners. I mean, the longest standing community and startup community, and the largest startup community here in Australia.

Martin Karafilis:

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. Fishburners is Australia's largest and longest standing start up community. So, since inception in 2011, we've helped over 45,000 entrepreneurs with their products, their ideas. We've helped raise over $2 billion worth of capital. We've had start ups that have gone from the earliest stages right through to acquisition and IPO.

We really pride ourselves on being the most inclusive and accessible start up space across Australia. And we're able to do that through our physical space, so from co-working where we bring people together, right through our digital products, our events, fish nights and things like that.

SCS:

I mean you said longest standing, when was Fishburners started and why Fishburners for the Americans that are tuning in?

Martin Karafilis:

Yeah, for those that haven't heard the word Fishburners before. The Fishburner ship was actually one of the first goods and trade ships that came to Australia. It was holding all of the innovation, all of the technology that was here to build what we have. So the name really comes from that transportation of the tech and goods, and really Fishburner sort of really prides ourselves on being that vessel for tech innovation in Australia.

We started in 2011 really. For those that don't know too much about the startup ecosystem in Australia, this was where we really got started. We had Blackbird that sort of raised their first fund. We started to see capital eventually starting to flow. We saw a lot of startups that were over in the US start to come back and start to deploy from an angel investment perspective and start to educate, and help startups. We also started to see the landscape of technology change as well over that period of time. So we started to see, if you actually think about this, 20 years ago, software was sort of solving it for us.

The cost of exporting from Australia, a piece of software, you had to physically print CDs and send it to a shop overseas. We started to see that landscape change a lot and really for startups to export their products from Australia to scale exponentially, it was a period of time that we saw so much growth in Australia.

SCS:

Yeah. And what was that tipping point? We're all, of course, fresh off yesterday. Thanks for coming and supporting us at Beyond The Billion as one of our ecosystem champions. With Rick Baker at Blackbird VC, I mean, tell us a little bit about your impression and Rick, of course, was speaking a little bit about the venture landscape as well and that inflection point.

So, I guess, let's start with reflections on yesterday as someone that's new to, I guess, the work that we do.

Martin Karafilis:

Yeah, absolutely. It was an absolutely amazing event and I think the work that you guys are doing is absolutely awesome. So thank you so much for having Fishburners as a part of that and I think, really some of those key takeaways when you listen to Rick speak, Blackbird's been there right from the start here in the Australian ecosystem.

And Fishburners is in that same boat. We really see ourselves as that glue to the startup ecosystem. There's really a bit of a disconnect between the stages of the founders that actually occur. So the support and resources that an early stage founder is going to need to those at a later stage is actually quite different.

Seeing the capital be deployed at the earlier stages and ensuring that we have angel investors that are coming to the party and actually investing at the earlier stages, and realistically at the most riskier stages is really important. Ensuring that we have that. flow through to the VCs and ensuring that we're making sure that companies are held accountable and quite transparent around what they're doing internally.

And I think Blackbird's one of those examples of a company that's doing really well about being transparent about their numbers, their KPIs.

SCS:

So what was surprising to you about yesterday and you were part of the investor round table where we had family offices, we had angel investors, right?

So across the spectrum, LPs and GPs, as well as the larger founder and funders panel, what was surprising to you having done this work as an entrepreneur and then an investor?

Martin Karafilis:

It's probably not so surprising for myself, but I think for the room and what we could see is, people understanding that investing in women founders is not charitable. The IRR for these funds and the return for their investments actually showcases the same and higher returns for a lot of these companies. So that for me is something that I really want to get out there into the startup ecosystem.

But more importantly, it's something that needs to be advocated across angel investors from the earliest stage to ensure that they're investing.

SCS:

Yeah. So when you think a little bit about the venture landscape in Australia, I mean, 2011 to 2024. That is pretty nascent. How have you seen the evolution? Like, do we have enough of a capital base?

Are there enough VCs? Are there enough entrepreneurs that are building? I mean, we were trying to count like the unicorns. And of course for many of us, top of mind coming from Australia is Canva, Airwallex, which have been invested into by our partner funds. So we know them well.

What'd you have to say to the Australian like startup community and where we are in terms of venture as part of that?

Martin Karafilis:

Yeah, I think it's interesting. We sort of just seeing funds raised their first largest fund, raising a billion dollars. We're starting to see that capital starting to flow from institutions and LPs being the super funds as well. We're starting to see that high on those early stage investments and start up investments is something that can return capital to a range of different investors that were originally looking at a whole heap of different asset classes.

In Australia, the startup ecosystem is pretty new. It's pretty fresh in comparison to the rest of the world.we have a strange sort of problem, but it's also something that's really advantageous for us as founders in Australia is that, we’re quite conservative in the way that we run our businesses. We're quite conservative in the way that, we prepare our products and the way that we go to market.

I've lived overseas. I've spent a lot of time across a whole heap of different countries, raising capital from VCs. I also invest myself as an angel investor and I see the pitch decks that come across. There's a sort of resilience that actually occurs from the founders that we have here in Australia, where they're not going out there and just raising a whole heap of capital and blowing that money.

They're actually having a really solid plan and strategy on how that they're actually going to go to market. They're going to take their product and actually put that in front of millions and millions of people. We see also a lot of great deals that, from international investors that are looking across the Australian market as well.

What deals that you would see a startup that might have an exponential, a huge valuation across in the U.S., you might see a start up that is at the same level doing something that's amazing and get a really, really solid deal on that investment. Just purely based on the fact that they're located here in Australia. And that, that high end competition phase is not as high as what it is in say, the US.

SCS:

So of course you mentioned Superfunds. And this is not common knowledge, but Superfunds are the pension funds. Many of them also today are investing in venture, but I heard it, you know, I was discussing this at the investor roundtable, the foundations, the endowments in Sydney, in Australia is not as active yet.

Can you give us a sense there in terms of who is backing and holding up the funds ecosystem? You know, what is the LP/GP dynamic here? Any challenges you see, because you are an LP as well, and a couple of funds here.

Martin Karafilis:

Yeah, correct. I think it's interesting, we have a great sort of ecosystem of family offices across Australia that are doing a really good job for the later stage investments, and we're sort of seeing that middle ground where VCs, it's as hard of a time as what it is for a startup to raise capital, for VCs to raise capital for their funds. So, that's something to really think about in the startup ecosystem.

And Rick actually touched on this, yesterday, talking about what are those ebbs and flows of, of raising capital, not just for the startup side, but also for the VC side, and understanding that we're sort of just come to the end of the original horizon of those original Blackbird funds, Blackbird fund I was originally a 10 year fund, and it's just starting to get those returns now. And we're starting to see this period of time where we will see that started to get put back into the startup ecosystem as well.

So there's a range of angel investors that are now investing in early stage companies. We actually, a really good example of that, chatting with Luke Anear, founder of a multi-billion dollar company, SafetyCulture, investing in Leica products, being one of Australia's great startups.

And at the earlier stages, being able to reinvest, his money into the ecosystem and start to grow those companies. Look, I think some of the numbers of what those returns look like are exceptional.

SCS:

Yeah, I mean, Canva was at the AFR, I think I was reading, making millionaires out of quite a few of the early investors, including those who had a little bit saved up and backed Melanie.

But Melanie herself, had said back in the day in Canva, she had to fly all the way to Silicon Valley. Yes, she got rejected by 100 VCs, but she felt like she had to get capital from outside. Is this different now for your startups here in Fishburners? Do they still feel like they have to be abroad to get the right capital and support?

Martin Karafilis:

Yeah, that's changed a lot over the last sort of five or ten years, and we see there's much more capital that's starting to flow here domestically in Australia, and we're starting to see the funds that are able to allocate funding to certain stages of companies.

One of the great things about the way funds are set up here in Australia is their investment thesis around Australian companies. And ensuring that, 50 percent of their company is here in Australia and making sure that we are putting money back into the ecosystem is really important.

I think there's also an element to that, that people miss is, the role of government. So, government plays a really strong role here in Australia for tech and innovation. For two factors really is, our import export policies, and ensuring that we can play on a lot of playing field of some of the larger countries. We have a really good deep tech, innovation network across our universities, and, a bunch of different people that are working on some amazing technologies.

One of the hardest things that we have here in Australia is the commercialization aspect of that. We're so far away from the rest of the world. there's so much capital that's existing out there for really front facing consumer products. It's like, how are we going to invest in these deep tech products that are going to take years and years and years.

And we see a lot of organizations that are backed by the government or supported by the government, that are helping these institutions. So, the commercialization of a lot of those technologies is something that should really excite Australians. And from a global standpoint as well, there’s some amazing organizations like CSIRO, makes equals ventures and other companies that are investing in these deep tech products.

SCS:

Talking about challenges, when you look at the landscape today, you've been an entrepreneur yourself, and tell us a little bit about your startup. What do you think startups in Australia struggle with the most today other than commercialization?

Martin Karafilis:

My last startup, I sort of grew that company globally. We sort of had main locations, US, Europe, in Germany and here in Australia. Really from the get go, we had to go overseas. There was absolutely no way that we could start what we had here in Australia and actually grow that to that level. So that was a big thing for us.

SCS:

So basically the market's not big enough here to sustain it. Yeah.

Martin Karafilis:

Yeah. The market from a customer standpoint, but also from an investor standpoint as well. We’re talking 2015, 2016, where the markets here in Australia were really just starting to develop particularly as well being a data tech company, something that we were working in AI at a time when AI isn't what it is now.

SCS:

Ah, timing, timing, timing.

Martin Karafilis:

Yeah, absolutely. So commercializing that was, was a really interesting, cycle for us. And it was something that we, you know, investors overseas really got and customers overseas really got and it was hard here in Australia.

But coming back and ensuring that we can also from a mentorship perspective, and help other founders go through that process, is something that, here in Australia, that is helping the ecosystem grow dramatically. We're seeing more capital starting to flow from a range of different angel investors that have started businesses overseas that have come back to Australia that are saying, hey, I really want to give back to Australia.

We have a great lifestyle here in Australia. We have great beaches. We have an amazing work life balance. So entrepreneurs tend to come back here once things once things are looking pretty good.

SCS:

I have to agree there. I was just telling, my team that Sydney is one of my favorite cities with the water and, you know, a good mix of lifestyle and all that.

Work life balance, I think, is something that Americans have to learn. Hustle culture is very real and, you know, I've seen a lot of my friends completely burned out, right? Just from the pressure that, frankly, investors put in them as well. And once you start, it's hard to really stop and, you know, reframe your identity.

A question that comes to mind is, you talk about how conservative Australians are, from a culture perspective, how good the lifestyle is and yet to be successful, you have to have global ambitions. how do you, you know, align the two and how are you developing that here in Fishburners?

Martin Karafilis:

Yeah, and I think this is a reflection as well when you look at any VC that's investing across the Australian landscape right now. There are very few investments that are made in companies that are not global almost from day one. It's just a market sized thing, and for us it's ensuring that we have the right networks, the right people that are around those companies to actually start the business and make the right calls right from the beginning.

But each phase is a little bit different. So making sure that we can provide the right resources, the right connection. So from an investor standpoint, ensuring that early stage investors are really meeting and connecting with early stage companies, later stage investors are with the later stage companies, they have the right information, the right tooling that will go through that process.

10 years ago here in Australia, if you were to say, what's a data room, you'd probably have a bunch of people that have just a bit of a drive with a few different pieces of information. You'd go to the States and you'd see a whole heap of different information that's being presented in a much better way from an investment standpoint.

So, ensuring that start ups understand that. And we have a great tech scene here in Australia. We have some amazing technical talent. It's quite competitive as we are starting to get more and more companies, but we have some amazing tech talent. I think being able to ensure that they know how to commercialize their technology is really important, but being educated on what the investors are looking for and making that match is really important for us because you can go through hundreds and hundreds of investors that say no to find the right investor. And I think that's really important for us to be able to grow the start up ecosystem.

SCS:

Yeah, so when you look at sort of where the Australians are building, it sounds like there's a lot in B2B these days, or B2B SaaS. What else are you excited by?

Martin Karafilis:

We have a really interesting makeup of startups here in Australia. So we have sort of your, your B2B SaaS companies just, absolutely take the market here. But we heard this from Rick and we heard it from a bunch of different VCs yesterday around AI companies. And really being at the front and center globally for some of the best AI startups in the world, coming from Australia. And that’s really exciting for us.

SCS:

So in fish burners, when you think about the community that you're building here, what are a couple of ideas that you've seen people working on that you're super excited about?

Any case studies of success stories that came out from Fishburners that you can share?

Martin Karafilis:

Yeah, absolutely. I think if we look at some of the case studies, there's two elements. There's what we've incubated and those that have come through other elements. So, a good example is actually someone showed me a picture of the early days. We actually had Melanie Perkins pitching Canva at our famous pitch night. So, Fishburners holds every week, a Friday night pitch night. We get a couple hundred people that come to that. We had Melanie Perkins there pitching at the earlier stages. And we started to see investment that flows from that.

We see companies like Hyper Anna, who raised around about $16 million from Sequoia. we have some amazing companies, one that I really like, founded by Nicole, who created a resource pack that was called the $100M MBA.

This then sort of transformed into a podcast, and they now have over 2 million monthly listeners. For me, they're doing an amazing job of being able to utilize the current technologies that we have in the world to actually sort of bring that knowledge out there. We have some amazing entrepreneurs in Australia that are not tech based as well. I think that's a big thing is, there's a lot of companies when we look at like, Janine Ellis, starting Boost Juice, for example, as a company.

She's someone that gives back to the ecosystem and very much so starts to now invest in companies and tech companies as well and give her expertise. So there's a really good example of that flow of companies that don't necessarily have to be tech to be very successful.

SCS:

Yeah. So the theme of founders funding forward, as you are, as you've succeeded with your own journey as an entrepreneur. I asked you this earlier. Do you think you're more an entrepreneur? Do you have that edge? Are you an entrepreneur? I mean, now you're like a CEO of a ecosystem builder, essentially. But do you think you might create something new?

Martin Karafilis:

I really like the enjoyment of investing in a company and knowing that I can help from the sidelines when needed. I like the idea to be able to back companies that are ambitious and truly have a passion for a problem to fix. I think for me, that's what I'll continue to do. I will continue to invest in startups and founders, have my impact that way and I'll let the founders go through the painful times rather than myself.

SCS:

So this sounds like you've had some pain, some scars in the past that you don't want to repeat, learning from mistakes. But I want to rehash that just a little bit, just for the purpose of some entrepreneurs that are tuning in here. We've got funders and founders that tune in.

What was your hardest lesson when you think about your time as a founder that you wish you had learned earlier?

Martin Karafilis:

I think one of the biggest things was being involved in a community or a network, was something that we should have done as found this much earlier along the journey. We were a bunch of tech people that knew how to build a really cool product. And we kind of hear this even yesterday, hearing a few stories from founders that kind of took businesses to a certain level and they sort of said that's it for me. ow do I get to those next stages?

So, I think being involved from a community aspect and ensuring that you're finding the right mentors and finding the right networks is super important. And I think that's bigger than just a local system. I think that's globally as well. So, I've been really lucky to eventually find the right people that enabled me to scale what we were doing and enabled me to grow as a person and learn from as well.

That's really important. So the faster that you can start to do that is absolutely important for your business. So I wish that, I probably did that a bit earlier.

SCS:

For those that don't know your story with your startup, to what level did you build in, I guess you were quoting Kristy Chong there, who sold Modibodi for $140, about $144 million.

And she actually shared with me that she felt she couldn't grow it anymore. And I mean, between two herniated discs, as we heard, a lot of stress. I mean, what, $250,000 in credit card debt and all of those in between. How'd you compare that to your journey? Did you scale it to where you felt you wanted it to be?

Martin Karafilis:

For me, very similar, went through a whole heap of lines of dodgy credit and whatever kind of money that we could get to start the business. I remember actually starting the organization, and three of us founders looked at each other. We actually, we quit our jobs. And we came to the office on Monday and we said, do we actually have enough money to quit our jobs?

And they said, no. So the first job was to find a way to get some money in the bank. So actually it was probably one of the best things that we'd ever done because, There was a push for us to gain customers as early as possible and get it in the hands of customers as well as find investments, that was a really, really interesting time for us.

SCS:

And remind me the business model that you eventually landed on.

Martin Karafilis:

It was a computer vision AI application, specifically for retail. We were able to essentially create a scanner for non barcoded items. You could put fruits and vegetables down on a, on a supermarket checkout. It would automatically identify what they are. This could be used across a range of different, store formats. From self checkout to, assisted checkouts to autonomous stores. no matter what that was, it was a fundamental element of the next phase of retail that we saw

We had a solid strategy that we sort of broke down into, into different phases. Our first phase was really to enable a way for our customers to actually adopt this technology. Innovation isn't real until it's in the hands of the customer. I think we as society probably face a lot of great ideas and not a lot of execution that occurs. And that was something that definitely stuck with me along the way is to say, okay, let's put it in the hands of customers.

So we needed to ensure there was a way we actually created hardware systems. This is something we did not want to do, but we had to do it to ensure that our technology was being adopted. But once the hardware systems were out there, we were able to then switch over to a software model, where we can sell software globally, for a monthly subscription, so we can allow retailers to use this technology.

So really straightforward for us, and it was something that we set out from the start to say, hey, this is it.

SCS:

And what was your exit for this one?

Martin Karafilis:

I was really lucky. We had quite a lot of investment into our business from a range of different sources. I think that's something for a lot of founders that from a planning aspect, we're seeing much more occur here in Australia than what we ever could was the, secondary options and ability to actually have, not only founders like myself be able to actually exit organizations, but also have a range of a range of employees actually be able to sell their shares and gain some form of monetary value, financial value for what their work that they've been.

Canva's a great example of a company that from a secondary option perspective enables their employees, their early stage employees, to be rewarded for the work that they're doing and it makes the startup ecosystem stronger.

SCS:

So how much did you raise for your last startup in total?

Martin Karafilis:

Overall, we probably raised around about $15 million of capital from the earliest stages and thereafter. A lot of different work with a range of different financial institutions.

SCS:

So did you sell it to Acquirer? What was the story there with your exit?

Martin Karafilis:

Yeah. So we had a large corporate organization that took a large stake in the business as well as that took a large stake as well. And that sort of really propelled the business forward.

SCS:

I guess what I'm getting to is, there's often a sentimental value for founders. And the question is, you know, when do I say, when do I go?

Did you know it was the right time for you to go?

Martin Karafilis:

Yeah, I think for me it was the right time. And I think it was, it had a lot to do with the fact that we had co founders, in the business. We were able to say, okay, particularly for myself, I was able to move out of that role and allow, other people to come in through that next phase.

And we actually have two of the founders still working for the organization now. We have a bunch of early employees that are still working for the business as well. It's a good mix and there's an ability to actually be able to say and really open conversations that occur. Behind closed doors, there's a lot of great conversations that happen between founders, and between employees around, you know, what are the goals and what does it look like? And that's always something that we've been able to plan for really well.

I think it's something that all founders should be able to talk about very early. And a lot of the time, every investor wants to know what the personal goals are and what, you know, what each individual founder wants to do over a period of time as well. What does that make up look over time? It may be the same, it may not be the same.

But, I'd certainly say if a business had one co-founder, it would be very difficult to leave the organization. I think, that’s your identity, that's your input that's there, and you'd be super scared. But for myself, I was very, very much so trusting that everything could continue on in an amazing way and continue to grow.

SCS:

What did that journey teach you about yourself?

Martin Karafilis:

When I exited that business, I spent a lot of time just playing golf.

SCS:

Nice. At the beautiful golf courses of Australia.

Martin Karafilis:

I got a lot of time to sort of think about what was next? Did go down that path of thinking about, is it the founder life? Is it the investor life? How do I get involved in the next thing? From a lot of the board role offers that I was looking at, it was like, how can I really start to make an impact?

And that was something that, for me, when I was talking to the Fishburners board, it was a role for me that I could truly give back to the startup ecosystem, the tech and innovation ecosystem here in Australia, just ensuring that we can stand up on the global stage and we can continue to grow and scale as an industry.

Rick touched on this, there was no industry, you know, 15 years ago. It did not exist. So, to be a part of that and grow that's really important.

SCS:

So your bestselling book, of course takes upon the reflections over your last few chapters. We want to encourage everybody to buy your book, but what is the key tenet there that you can share with us?

Martin Karafilis:

Yeah, so the book is called Crazy or Genius and realistically, I think it's hard for every entrepreneur when they're building a business, It's to actually understand is, you know, are they crazy or are they a genius along that journey? There's probably, to spoil it all, is you won't ever know until the end, to be fair.

But there's a couple of key principles and a couple of key frameworks that you can use along the way to make sure that, hey, like, you know, what you're doing is actually going to work and I think you need to be driven, you need to be solving a problem that you're very passionate about, but there needs to be an understanding behind it, what are investors and VCs looking for? What's the market looking for? And ensuring that you can sort of mix everything together in a way.

But, for me, there's just something undeniable about a certain founder mindset. A certain founder mentality. When they can mix that with a process, is something that, something very special will happen. And I've seen a range of different founders go through some very tough times and they've been able to pivot their businesses in a way that some would never ever expect.

And I've also seen a lot of companies go from something that a lot of VCs, angel investors, people right from the start would say, why would I invest in this? Canva is probably a good example of something when, no pitched a yearbook, is this in something that is going to rival Adobe. Do you think that it is going to be at the level that Canva is at right now?

It takes something very special for an investor to go, yes, I back you and I back this business. Because it could have gone a whole heap of ways but there's something very special about a found that it can actually do that. Throughout the book I pretty much talk about a range of frameworks that I used, a bunch of sort of grounding episodes, you know, a few of my personal stories about things that I've learned.

SCS:

So, we've come to the end here, and I always end with a rapid fire. So, quick questions, quick sentences, like one sentence answers first thing that comes to mind. You ready? Alright, always ready, Martin.

SCS:

Fame or fortune?

Martin Karafilis:

Fame.

SCS:

Biggest career mistake?

Martin Karafilis:

Holding on to a business probably too long. I think one of my earlier businesses, uh, probably could have, probably could have called it earlier.

SCS:

What is a skill set that you feel is completely undervalued today?

Martin Karafilis:

Being able to reset, I think, is a really important skill. I know this is meant to be rapid fire, but I actually a question that I used to always ask for any employee that I was hiring was, do you have a method for dealing with stress? Do you have a way to reset yourself when everything is going wrong?

And there were two distinctive answers. One was a bunch of people that said, I just work harder. And the sustainability element of that was just not there, we all know this. And those that had a method to be able to reset, whatever it was, was not there. That was something that we found that the best employees and the best founders have, so I think about this, a game of golf is… It’s ups and downs.

SCS:

I feel like I need to play golf with this guy now. I'm like, this guy must be really good. The amount of golf that he has played through the stressful times, I can see it. What's your handicap? Is it zero?

Martin Karafilis:

I'm the worst single figure handicap that you would ever meet. So yeah, I'm a single figure handicapper, but, you know, I took up golf and was able to get there in about two years. I'm pretty happy about that.

Yeah, there's ups and downs and I think, you know, you can be in the middle of a game and everything's going horrible. If you can find a way to reset and a way to actually ground yourself, you can actually start to come back and start to win.

SCS:

Well, that segues very nicely into my next question. What kind of leaders do you hire?

Martin Karafilis:

Yeah, for me, it's all about the soft skills. A lot of the other skills can be taught and there's a lot of things that, a lot of tools and resources that people can use, but when it comes to leaders, it's about the soft skills.

SCS:

So what's one question that you ask in an interview that, like, tells you all?

Martin Karafilis:

I like the question to say, what would your boss say about you? But I also, I also love the question to say is your direct report, in one word, what would your direct report say about you?

It’s interesting some of the things that come back, and some of the things that people would say. And we go ahead and we actually ask those questions and see if they match.

SCS:

Okay, well I have to ask you that question. What would your direct report say about you? What would Dosh say about you?

Martin Karafilis:

So we actually, we have Dosh from our marketing team here. Dosh, do you wanna, do you have a word for me? Off screen, a word as a leader.

SCS:

Genuine. That's a good one.Put you on the spot here, Dosh, I love it. Thank you.

I guess final one. What is something someone has said to you, your entire life, right? Childhood, whatever that has stuck to you till today and has influenced you and continues to influence you.,

Martin Karafilis:

There's two things actually that have really always stuck with me and the first playing, I've always sort of played elite sports from, from a younger age. And sort of going forward, and there's a story in my book about what actually stops me, an injury that really stops me from playing elite sports.

There's this really famous statement that's said in a game of AFL football, for those that don't know, it's an Australian rules football game, where the coach is saying, just go out there and do something.

And I think that's the thing is, nothing is going to happen by just sitting back. So there's no ideas, there's nothing there. It's just always about the idea of just like, actually go out there and just do something. That is going to have some form of impact. If you're sitting back and doing nothing, it's gonna do nothing.

So it's like, make sure you go out there and do something. The other one that has stuck with me for a little while now, there was a stage in my life where actually, I had a head injury, and that was what stopped me playing elite sports. I had a fractured skull, with a bleeding brain and I was in intensive care for a while, the recovery was pretty hard and it was pretty long. I remember getting told the Chinese proverb that most people know the idea that, hey, you know, if something happens in your life, maybe it's good and maybe it's bad. You know, and that for me, if anyone hasn't actually heard that, look it up.

I actually do mention it in the book as well. And I think that whole proverb itself was something that stuck with me.

SCS:

Wow. Love that. Well, for making the moves and going out there and doing something, Martin, thank you for making your version of Billion Dollar Moves. We gotta do a high five because we did it in under 30 minutes!

Martin Karafilis:

Thank you!