[REPLAY] “To Fail in Such A Public Way"—The Cost of Influence & Billion Dollar Ambitions with Vivy Yusof, FV Group

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Vivi Yusof is a name that we've heard over and over again. Love by millions of women. Vivy, how are you?

Vivy Yusof: I'm good. I'm so happy to be, this is my first podcast, Sarah, with you!

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Oh, I am so honored. I am so honored. So we will live, live up to expectations. I always say, , we rise to the occasion and what, what better way, , because we both got the memo. I was vibing with you even before we got started.

Well, Vivy, we are heading towards the end of the year. You've just released your book, which has taken you about two years as you've told me previously. How does it feel?

Vivy Yusof: Oh my God, I have it here. I go to sleep with it. Yes, but I started my journey as a blogger. As , I started very early on in university. I love writing. Even though I went through the entrepreneur journey, I'm still going through it, writing has always been like my passion, my form of therapy. So to come full circle and actually write a book about the journey for the 10 years is surreal.

And I'm the most impatient person. And so not disciplined. So writing a book really forces you to, to do that. You have to relive each memory, the good and the bad. You have to uncover again all the mistakes you've done, which is really hard, to go through that again and write about it. I like to do things fast, so I was pretty surprised that this book took me almost two years.

I thought it would be a three-month thing. Very naive of me, still, , having my job and having four children. It's a miracle that this has launched and I'm really happy. I published it with Penguin, so now it's gonna be global distribution hopefully. So hopefully it'll be in the US, and in the Europe and all of that soon.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Yes. I already got my Kindle copy, so I have been digging in and I'm so excited. I've been digging in, the K-drama of you and Fadza (Vivy’s husband), and the hair blowing and all that. I love it. I love it all.

But let's get started. In true billion dollar moves fashion, we go deep, as raw, and as unfiltered as can be on Billion Dollar Moves.

And I wanna really understand some context - give our audience a little bit of context of how Vivy Yusof came to be. I know you talked a little bit about the joy of writing from day one. But go even further back than that, as a child, were you always set up to be this Vivy Yusof you imagined?

Vivy Yusof: So I was born and raised in Kuala Lumpur. It's the capital of Malaysia. And I am the youngest out of two siblings. So my sister, my elder sister is seven years older than me, so she was off the boarding school. So basically I was alone. And when you're alone, I guess there's all this like, creativity coming in your mind.

And I love roleplaying by myself, I was like putting all my teddy bears align and I've always been a little bit bossy. So my mom has told me that there's always been that leadership in me since young. I've always been the bossy one, telling the whole family where to eat, what to do, what time to sleep… so she saw that in me.

And writing was very much influenced by Sweet Valley kids. Do  that series?

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Yes. I love Sweet Valley. My goodness.

Vivy Yusof: So I used to collect it. That would be like the highlight of my day, going to the bookstore and getting the new edition. I've always loved writing and imagining and storytelling and creating.

It makes sense that now I am an entrepreneur. I am still the bossy me. I still love creating something out of nothing. I love creating products. I love fashion. I created this blog. I did not know where it would take me and it's pretty crazy how everything falls into place because when you start a blog, it's literally just, , just writing.

At that time, writing down things, you are in university, you're just sharing your thoughts and your lifestyle and where you ate… to me it was just something fun, and it still is. But I never would've foreseen getting millions of people tuning. I think even until today, that feels really surreal.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: So tell us, this blogging activity; it feels so recent, but it's also a while ago. It’s hard to imagine that your career really started with a blog. Tell us a little bit more about the birth of your blog; what were you writing about, what actually made you grow following in some way?

Vivy Yusof: Yeah, I started it when I was in university. My friend set it up for me ‘cause she's like, you like to write and blogging's a new thing, you gotta be on it, ?

So I'm like, okay, I guess, what do I write about? I actually graduated in law in LSE, London School of Economics. So completely different. And while I should have been in law school reading, I found more pleasure in writing and it's just daily things.

And the interesting thing that, my husband when he was my boyfriend then, so he saw me through it. He was like, blogging comes so naturally for you; you would write something that's like a whole page long, but it only took you 10 minutes. So it wasn't a chore, it didn't take up much time, but I was consistent. Sometimes I would even put two entries a day.

So I think, having the sincerity that you just love doing it. And not for fame, not for more viewership, not to get viral, is literally just writing from the heart to myself. For the longest time I never knew how to read the statistics or whatever on the WordPress or the blogspot. So I had no idea who I was talking to and I was terrified when I found out that I was talking to my dad.

Here I am writing about the parties; my dad on the other side in Malaysia, the blog was how he kept in touch with me, knowing my what abouts. So I went anonymous for a while, my faces were deleted ‘cause I was terrified of him finding out. And then on my graduation day he came and he told me, okay, so, you've done all this, now you gotta think about your career, where do you wanna work? Oh, by the way, you should continue blogging.

And I'm like, “What? You knew?” And he was like, of course I'm your dad. I know everything else. But him giving me that blessing, I wrote about this in the book, is what kind of catalyzed everything. The growth after that was just exponential because I started revealing my name, myself, my OOTDs at that time, ?

So his blessing really opened doors for me, and that's how I think it just grew. And then Instagram, Facebook, Instagram, been great.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Yeah. And , I think this happens a lot in Asia. I think the celebrity factor happens, what feels like suddenly and quickly with certain people. And I've always wanted to ask you this question: When you think about what you were writing about, who you were putting forward into the interwebs; what do you think resonated with people and why do you think you really hit it off as a celebrity in some way?

Vivy Yusof: So, I really don't like the celebrity word because to me, like celebrity, are actress, singer, ? I think it was really tough for people to put me in any bucket. I'm first and foremost a blogger at the time, and then became an entrepreneur, right? And because I had the following already when I was an entrepreneur, they immediately called me celebrity entrepreneur.

And I'm like, what does that mean? I still feel a little uncomfortable and people call me celebrity cause I don't think of myself as that at all. If anything, I'm just an entrepreneur that has a little bit of influence and a bit of following online. That's it. ?

Ironically, I think people follow me because I'm not a celebrity. They just want someone relatable, someone maybe even just like them. And because they read, I think the power of words and writing and storytelling is so powerful because people feel like they know you, ? They've seen you because I've been doing it consistently since Uni days.

They feel like they've been a part of my life, part of my growth, me getting married, starting a business, having my first, second, third, fourth child. Like they were there and this is the feedback that I get every time I meet them. And they're like, I feel like I know you, I know your kids and it gets a bit weird sometimes, ‘cause we even had a reality show to promote the business.

And it got to a point where my kids got so famous that we would go to weddings. People would come and kiss them on the cheek, , strangers. And we were eating at a restaurant one day and someone just sat down and sat with us while we were eating, and had a conversation. So it got a little bit, uh, is this normal? I'm not sure. But I'm still really grateful that this is the community that really basically raised me.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Yeah. And, we wanna jump a little bit to the business, but you brought up a very interesting topic that I did wanna dig in a little bit deeper with regard to what you said.

The fact that you've had some influence, you continue to have that influence, but importantly, you're putting every single element of your life, including your kids, your family, everything else; everybody knows or thinks they know you, right? The version of you that's out there. What have been some of the challenges in that for you?

Vivy Yusof: Well, I think it's a choice that you make. This was my path. , everybody's path is different. Some people are extremely private, some people are extremely public; whatever works for them at that time. For me, I started as a blogger and I started to share lots of things even from then, even before the business, even before the kids.

So it's kind of like just going along with it. I've had many episodes where I stop and think like, am I sharing too much? And that's just honest, right? I don't think any influencer who had sudden fame and then had a business and the business kicked off would not think about this. They definitely would think about this.

When you get to your thirties, do you still sharing everything? When you get to your forties, you still wanna do makeup tutorials. Like you think about that. And right now I'm at a, I guess a transition phase, where I do think about this and I'm thinking, I already have investors. The business is not cute anymore. It’s  a proper organization now with institutional investors.

And here I am like, hey guys, welcome to my house. Do I still want to be that persona for the brand? I loved your last episode with Rana where you talked about decoupling your identity from the business. Because the entire business had my face there. So it's very hard.

I'm at that stage where I'm thinking, I got four kids now. Do I want to share less? But what does that mean for the people who have followed me all this while, ? So I'm still going along, but I'm following my gut.

And then there are the security things like your kids' school, your cars, your plate numbers, your address… You just don't give that away, you don't know who's watching. As much as I love that there are so many women supporting me, I'm sure there are some - I don't know who's out there watching.

So I tend to be a bit more cautious now, especially after becoming a mother. The tough parts about building a business so publicly is that your mistakes really get aired - aired and amplified, 10 times for many businesses. If there's a customer complaint, they’d solve it, replace the product or, say sorry and all that. But for me, it becomes viral. It becomes news in the media. It becomes like “oh my God, Vivy sent the wrong order to this person,”

The pros are good, but the cons are also there, and everything we do this pros and cons. So I've learned to be thick faced about it.

And there are some things in the media I cannot control, and it's just so much misinformation that I just get so upset sometimes. But I've learned to pick my battles because I cannot refute every single news about me or about the brand, in the news, especially on Twitter.

[00:14:36] Sarah Chen-Spellings: Yeah. You don't wanna go down that rabbit hole. And I know you have as well, and then suffered from that. This is an important topic that we'll come back to, but let's go back to you and Fadza, building this partnership both personally and professionally, resulting in the birth of a brand Fashion Valet.

How did that all come to be? I mean, both of you were just, what, in your twenties? This was long before the e-commerce broom in Southeast Asian, in a big way. Tell us a little bit about that chapter.

Vivy Yusof: I think we were so blessed because we did it at the right time. We had just graduated from the UK. I was from LSC Fata did aeronautical engineering in Imperial. So completely nothing to do with. Then you come back, you sell women's clothes, his dad still makes jokes about that, “Send you so far away studying about airplanes and you come back and do something completely different,”

But that's our path. We came back after being very accustomed to shopping online in the UK. , there's ASOS at that time. There's Sainsbury, Tesco, all these like very, very in tune with shopping online. When we came back, we realized in our own country, in Malaysia, there was nothing like that, it was very infant stage.

There wasn't any big players coming in yet, so we thought, and I saw that I have a following online, so this is an opportunity that we should grab. The idea came when he was driving me from store to store and he was like, can't all of these stores just be one place, and online so we don't have to leave our house?

And I'm like, oh. And then he also went, oh, should we do that? And it just went from that idea to the website launch FashionValet.net at that time. It was one month, Sarah, like we did everything - set up the company, come up with the idea, talking to the web builders, talking to the designers that we wanted to consign, getting their stock photo, shooting, uploading, editing, and pressing live.

All that was one month. So we went full throttle, like it was just obsession. And I wrote about this in my book, obsession is really needed to make something successful, ? That was all we could think about; I slept thinking about Fashion Valet, I woke up thinking about Fashion Valet. It was so exciting.

And I think every entrepreneur, every founder can relate to this. When the beginnings, the early days, it's just so nice and so fulfilling. And at the same time you're hopeful. You're like, hopefully people will like it; I'm working so hard, I don't know where this is going, but hey, let's just do this.

We're young, ? And thankfully, we had a bit of cushion for us because I have a following. So at least I had a platform to kind of tell people, hey, come to this website, your girl just launched something and people were so happy.

The website was horrible; the photos when we launched were yellow, because we did not know anything about photography and who was the one that shaped us and helped us navigate through this was literally our customers. It was literally my blog readers and my supporters, my followers that helped me maneuver. They're like, hey, how come you don't have filters? How come there's no tops and then long sleeves and short sleeves? And we're like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay, gotta do that.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: And so Fashion Valley, when you started, I mean FashionValet.net, I guess this was towards the end of your university, what was your following like at that point in time?

Vivy Yusof: My following? I can't remember, but at that time there was no Instagram yet, I did not have my 1.8 million followers. But I did have maybe a few thousand readers on my… So they were the ones who helped me grow.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: So you had your 1000 True fans.

Vivy Yusof: Yeah. Being the pioneer doing it in your country really helps you gain media love, because you're the first, you're the pioneer. So we also were so indebted to the media because they were like writing about this website that carried local designers, and it was such a nice cause, right?

Of course, I've pivoted since then, it's been 12 years. But at that time when we launched it, everybody was rooting for it because how can you not like a platform of building many local entrepreneurs? That's beautiful. Even for us, in the early days, that fueled us, knowing that if we make it, all these hundred designers make it too.

So that was the camaraderie spirit that we had among all of us. And because we were the only one at that time, so all the attention was on us. Everybody wants to support this cause of building your own local talents and giving them the platform. I miss it, even though that's no longer in our path, and we've said goodbye to that business because it commercially it didn't make business sense, because the supply was not consistent and we were dealing with very, very small enterprises. So it was hard to scale. But I miss doing it because it was such a nice cause.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Fadza, at that point in time when you guys were just getting started, he was with Deloitte, wasn't he?

Vivy Yusof: Yeah. So he was probably the worst employee there.

He would be like 7:00am at our office with our friend doing this and stuff. He's like, oh man, I gotta work. Then he'll go at 9am or whatever, and then he'll come back right on the dot at 6:00 PM, leave the office like goodbye. But I think his boss knew that this was something else, and even his boss encouraged him, “I think you should do this full-time; this has potential, e-commerce is booming, and I really wanna see you succeed here, ”

It was obvious that his heart wasn't there. And it was nice that his peers encouraged him, like, go do this, go make us proud. And he left after, like almost a year. He also got really left out. I think when if it's three people, and two people are so close doing all these things and making things happen, you are in another place. You get a bit like, oh, I wanna be a part of that. Like, that's mine too, ? So he quickly left and joined when we saw traction in revenue.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: One of the key issues that we see with a lot of startups is actually finding the right co-founder. And you've found that in your husband. We don't all have that option but how did you both decide?

I mean, this is strategic as well, right? In which it's almost like you're both all in. In some way, in one endeavor, this is gonna work or this is not. How did both of you arrive at this decision that both of you were gonna work at it and what were your roles respectfully?

Vivy Yusof: Yeah, I think it's logic mixed with a little bit of naivety. When you're young and in love, you're like, yeah, let's do this together, you and me. Things are gonna go so well, let's get married, ? So it's a little bit of that, but it's also how I analyze our personalities. We complement each other so well. So this is the advice I give young entrepreneurs as well; when you find a co-founder, try to find someone who's the opposite of you, in skill sets. So for me, I'm a people person, I like going out, I like marketing, product. He loves finance, strategy, operations, things that I don't necessarily enjoy. So us put together, it was like a dream team, ?

On top of that, we also are so aligned in personal lives as well, so actually in a way it made it easier because after we got married, we were even more aligned because all our eggs are in this basket. Like it's all or nothing like you said, right? So we gotta make it work. So when your interests are aligned and the stakes are that high, you get even closer and it's such a good partnership.

I can't imagine doing this without him. It's so funny, like when we talk to our other married friends or married couples, and we're like, what do you guys talk about at home? Because you guys live different lives at work, so when you come home, it's like, if you talk about work, you don't know who I'm talking about, and I don't know who you're talking about.

So what should they talk about? Well, for us our lives are just one. So we're so dependent on each other, and the partnership at work and at home really works so far. Fingers crossed this is it, everything's good. But I would say, it's pretty rare that a husband and wife can work together as well. I realize now that actually that's not the norm and my friends don't want to work with their husbands. I think we're one of a kind really, so far.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Yeah. You bring out the best in each other, and as you said, this is not normal in a large way. A lot of couples in running businesses, there's often a lot of tension. How do you manage times when it gets really difficult?

Vivy Yusof: So we've made a pact where we have to talk about the big strategic things, just the two of us. First, we need to be aligned before we go into a meeting. So before any meeting, we know what the objective is, what we want from this, and we align first so that we don't look like haphazard in front of everyone. So we are very respectful of each other in that way.

We also made another rule that we have to solve arguments immediately. So there's no dragging on; “I don't talk to you for two days” or “I give you silent treatment for a week”. That never happens with us because it really affects work.

So you can't drag it on, it’s not even an option because we have to “look, I was upset that you did this. I didn't like that… you said this, can we talk about this?” And one of us will be “Okay, sorry about that… that won't happen again.”

Or we would argue some more and come to a landing. So there's no argument that we have that doesn't have a landing. We must land because then we have our meeting after that, or there's a work trip, or we gotta go home to our kids. So we don't drag things. And I think that's worked really well for us.

‘Cause nothing gets held in, like it's all out. And it's solved next, that is very important. I think especially when you're leading an organization of 300 people. It cannot be whether these founders have an argument or not, that things progress.

Sarah Chen-Spellings:. And if you've done your reflection of your first decade, if you were to think about the times when you both argued about something. Was there a pattern of what these disagreements would be?

We talk a lot about diversity being very healthy and diversity of thought is healthy, but it's also very difficult to actually manage. When you think about that, between both of you, is there anything that you picked up from reflecting on your time working together?

Vivy Yusof: I think, yes, there is a pattern and the pattern is always that I think it's not fast enough. Because I'm the impatient one; I'm the one that's like, , let's go, let's do this now, let's take this project and that project. Oh, another project. Oh, opportunity. So I'm more of like the “let's jump in and do everything.”

While he's more calculative and he's more risk averse, I'm more “let's just jump into the point where it may that be detrimental to our focus and shifting our focus a little bit”. I guess that's the entrepreneur in me that every opportunity is a potential for something.

So we argue a lot about that, about I need to say no more, and he needs to be faster. We have a lot of arguments about speed and whether we grab opportunities that come our way or not. Those are big decisions and big discussions because they're all strategic.

If you take this, see if you wanna start another brand, then , everything in the group will be affected, so it's really big discussions and I think the bigger the business is, the more difficult these conversations get, to be honest. Like the stakes are higher, and now we have investors to answer to. So everything must be calculated. Our personalities mixed together, hopefully will help us find this balance, especially moving forward on to the second decade.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Absolutely. And, , talking about being opportunistic and riding the right wave when it hits, you started Fashion Valet at an interesting time. It grew traction very quickly, and as you said, you got support from the locals, but then rocket Internet came in and that actually put fire beneath your feet in some way. How did that shape the trajectory of your business with competition coming in?

Vivy Yusof: Rocket Internet coming in was super scary for us two young founders, suddenly there's a big conglomerate, billion dollar valuations coming in. We're like, okay, goodbye. This was it. This was fun. So we got really scared, but I think the fire in me lit up. I was like, no, I'm not gonna back down. And that's why we started talking about fundraising.

So if anything, rocket Internet actually helped us grow. Our competitor helped us grow tremendously because we started gearing up. We knew that we couldn't grow exponentially, we didn't have funds, we didn't have capital. And so fundraising became an option, which is pretty scary for two young founders.

Like you, you people talk about investment and VCs, people in suits with jargons evaluations, la la la. But for us it's like learning about this. It's intimidating. It's scary. So we had to learn. And of course in true Vivy fashion, it had to be in front of the nation because we joined a reality show about getting funding and if you win, you get funding at the end.

And we did all the way, so that was in front of the nation and it was on tv. So if we failed, we royally failed in front of everyone. To me it's go big or go home. Even if we lose e even if we lose and didn't get this investment, at least we got marketing traction on tv, which we can't afford. So to me it was a win-win either way.

We did get the investment and I don't know if you can relate to this or any founder here, but once you get the first investment, you kind of get addicted and you wanna raise again and again. It becomes like a drug that you need to raise evaluation. You need to prove to people. You need to get more funds because it's glamorous or sexy or you've made it. Actually no, that's the beginning of a new stress level. The pressures have gone up; now you gotta hit your targets.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: So at that time, what year was this?

Vivy Yusof: 2012. So we started in 2010, 2012 was when we came in, and we also got funding. And then there were subsequent rounds of funding after.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Right. So in 2012, that was when rocket Internet came in for the North American audience. It's the equivalent of Amazon in a big way, because they have all sorts, including fashion as well. And they were bringing in all sorts of brands. And your strategy at that point in time was still local designers?

Vivy Yusof: Yep. We went all the way with that. So local designers was our niche. And when Zara came in, we were like, so do we grow now? Do we go head to head with them? And I think we tried that a bit and we realized that it wasn't gonna work because we didn't have the funds that they had.

So it was much niched. And even our customers were like, what are you guys doing carrying brands like Maybelline, it just didn't make sense. You guys are all about local, so what are you trying to be? So we were like, okay, we can't follow our competitor.

So I think that was my lesson where I'm like, never try to be like your competitor. Find your edge and just go all the way with that and don't try to be someone else. That's a huge lesson that I learned, that carried me on until now. Like even with dUCk and Lilit, I'm always aware of what competitors are doing, but I always stop myself; never try to be tempted to be like them because you have your own niche, you have your own specialty, and you need to double down on that instead of wanting to be like everyone else.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: And what was your niche at that point in time? Was it just any local designer or how were you thinking about the business at that time? What did Fashion Valet seek to represent?

Vivy Yusof: Yeah, it was literally that, local designers, because at that time the local designers scene was quite small here, so it was the intent of wanting to grow it. And with Fashion Valet having more funding, we actually could fund the designers to make their collections.

Because a lot of the designers, they're smaller, it's not like they're Nike or Zara, that has capital to keep running and running. Some of them run from collection to collection. So if they didn't make money from this collection, there would be no second collection.

So far I think Fashion Valet in a big way helped a lot of designers because we funded each collection. Even with marketing, we helped with the platform. We even co-designed some things with them in collaboration. We kinda spurred a lot of activity in the local fashion industry, which before this was very small, so we were really known for that. We were really known to support local.

The problem was that with that is that when we try to scale to other countries, which of course is something we want. As an entrepreneur, I wanna be a global brand. Whatever it is I make or sell, I wanna be global. I don't wanna just be a Malaysian brand, I wanna be a global brand, right?

So then we start realizing that we've gone too nationalistic with this Malaysian local designers. How do we sell this to Middle East? How do we sell this to the US? How do we sell this to even our neighbors like Indonesia? I think that was something that hit us.

But us, me especially, being a very stubborn entrepreneur, I'm like, no, we can make it work. People will love it, don't worry. We'll try anyway. So we did that and I should have followed my gut because I think I knew that this wasn't a relevant product for that market. It was difficult to scale this and yet I still wanted to try and prove that it could work, so we pivoted. But I think if I followed my gut, we would've pivoted a lot sooner and stopped ourself from burning.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Yeah and this notion of having to pivot and holding out, giving it a try and things like that. I think that every entrepreneur goes through that journey. Because as you said, we're obsessed to the point that sometimes reality is warped. And in some way, you were trying your best here, but what was it that really told you? What was the inflection point that this is really not going to work? What was the wakeup call that said, okay, we need to do something else here?

Vivy Yusof: It wasn't one moment, I think we were introduced the numbers that was already telling that, we're not really getting much from here because we suddenly have a lot of debt, inventory of various social designers.

And, worse was that these local designers were also working with our competitors with Zara because they were also offering lucrative deals. It got me like, why are we doing this? It's just the numbers don't look good. Designers are working with our competitors.

This is not going well, and when we started failing internationally, like one by one we're like, okay, we don't have product market fit. And culturally, fashion is so different, so it got very difficult to scale. The numbers don't look good, our vendors were working with competitors. I think, put together, gave us a wakeup call, but it wasn't a one wakeup call where I would wake up and like, okay, today's it. No, it was multiple discussions, not just with Fadza, but also with mentors, also with our team.

But putting the hammer on it, maybe other founders can relate, it's so hard. It's your baby, to say bye is very difficult. But a blessing was that we started dUCk and other house brands. So dUCk is eight years old now. So in our Fashion Valet journey, thank God we built in-house brands because that really helped us.

It subsidized Fashion Valet heavily to a point, where I wrote this in the book as well, that our house brands were contributing 90% of revenue of the entire group. So what else, what other signs do we need?

The pandemic is actually that told us it is inevitable. Because honestly we had conversations where we would, “let's just run this simultaneously”, “let's have the platform and also our house brands,”, “let's just do that so one would subsidize the other; maybe that's okay, maybe that's a good overall business model.”

So Fashion Valet was in the loss, but here's our house brands that were very profitable, so your minus is out. That's what we were like trying to save this Fashion Valet platform. But when the pandemic hit suddenly the local brands that weren't just no more supply, and Fashion Valet became just our brands in new arrivals.

So we were like, okay. I think it's not fair for the brands because they have so much potential to grow on their own in separate ways. But we're lumping them together in one marketplace forever, it wasn't gonna be good for the long term growth of these brands.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: And I've heard you say this, your margins were something like from 30% with dUCk and your own brand, that was 50% and beyond. So clearly the business was telling you that this was gonna work out.

How was the unravelling of the previous version of Fashion Valet? How did that all happen?

Vivy Yusof: Yeah, I thought pivoting would be so simple - this won't work now just move on. But actually, hey, wait a minute, we have so many stakeholders. We have our investors that we have to explain this to and sell and convince this new direction. We also have our team, who's so invested in, wanting to build up the local fashion industry, so that means their purpose has changed here.

worried about that as well, like the morale of our team. And then I had to tell the designers like, hey, I'm not gonna sell you anymore, so nice knowing you… What do I say? And then the fourth was our customers and the public at large. And I know that, being in the spotlight, being very public in my country, our mistakes get celebrated by the haters too. Like they're waiting for this to happen.

We had many discussions about preparing ourselves for each of the stakeholders, for the investors. We're gonna do this. They're the ones we have to explain this first. Once they're in all good, then it's all operations and execution after that.

So we had like, I think daily standups, we called this the project Sunset. And that project had a committee and we went through every single thing. Like we had to build website and apps for the brands and then transition the customers to that website and app and leave Fashion Valet. So we had to do a lot of exclusive deals. It wasn't like a one month thing, it was a two year plan, it was a two year progression from telling the designers we are gonna close down Fashion Valet, the marketplace and we need to return your stock. All these things.

And that process went first. So by the time we actually closed down the website, everyone internally already knew because we've been talking about it for a year. It's been in the process for that long so they weren't surprised. Designers didn't say anything because they knew, it wasn't news, but it was news to the public.

It was bittersweet. Then the haters started coming out and like told you, this girl's a scam, blah, blah, blah, blah. I had to go through so much public humiliation because people didn't know the extent of the whole story. They didn't know that actually we were profitable as a group. And we are closing down the unprofitable unit, so it's a good thing for the business, but they didn't know that.

They just saw fashion medicals down. So that's it. “Vivy is canceled, how can people celebrate her?” “She's clearly not a good entrepreneur.” I had to read articles about my failures from people who didn't even interview me. So where are you getting all these assumptions. And it's so embarrassing when people take your financial statements, your audited financial statements and put them out in the media line by line, box them in red, like you see the losses here, and writing about it.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: If I may, one criticisms was also that, you were basically copying. Some of the designs that you claimed to be supporting, and that was one of the big ones that really hit you hard. How did you resolve that and did you feel you made mistakes in handling?

Vivy Yusof: Well, I feel sad because these claims were just claims on social media that had no proof or even had any legality around it. Like a scarf is a scarf, like a floral print. If I do another floral print, I'm a plagiarist. Or I had a photo shoot where the theme was artsy. So artist painting with like the ladder and the easel and all that. And because another brand did that a few years ago, I'm a plagiarist. Or one person did a turbine with two strings to tie it up and I also did a turbine with strings, I'm a plagiarist.

When it's a common product - one of the worst ones I got was a scarf. Because we're always trying to innovate, trying to see the lifestyle of our customers, how to make it easier. So one of the ideas was an instant scarf. So when you put the scarf here and then the magnets just, just click together and that's it. Done. So it's not a new thing.

It's not a lot of brands have used magnets before, but this one founder did a TikTok video that went viral, having millions of views because he was crying and he was like, “how can this big brand do this to me? She completely plagiarized me and here I am, I'm just a small brand trying to make ends meet,”

He got so much love and support and I got in turn, so much hate and like people wanting to like throw stuff at me. Because I'm always gonna be seen as the big brand bullying smaller brands, even if I've never heard of them or seen their products, or even if the products are generic products in the market already.

So I find that to be sometimes hard to deal with because it's okay if I did it, then I'm like it's my mistake. But if I didn't do it and if I never heard of them, how can you just accuse someone of that? And then public at large endorses it as truth, that hurts. So any news I read now, I take it with a pinch of salt. Cause I'm like, you don't know the other side. People can make claims and suddenly it's truth. It's not fair.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Yeah. And it's fascinating how we started this story with you being the underdog that was loved by the public and people rooting for you. And suddenly Vivy is now the big brand.

Vivy Yusof: Yeah, you are absolutely right. In a way, I miss being the darling, where we're supporting all the other brands and people we're like a team. But when that doesn't work out anymore, suddenly just became “she's now the bad guy”.

Honestly, Sarah, I think personally it's a little bit hard. I think it took me about two years to kind of deal with this personally, because in social media, I still need to be like “Hey, everything's great” but inside, it hurts when people who are a team now, were lashing out at each other on social media. So one thing I do is I never engage on social media.

I personally message them, “let's talk,” “this didn't happen and I'm really sorry that you thought it did, but let's have a conversation about it,” And the response I get is more posts on social media. So clearly it's not to solve problems, it's just clout. Like, they need the attention.

Like this guy who lashed at me for no reason on TikTok, his collection sold out. The next day, he's like, thank you for your support, gonna restock. In a way, I'm just like, okay, so now are people just using me for attention because they know that if they associate me or my brand in their posts, it can gander a bit more views especially if it's a hate message or an accusation.

It gets attention and unfortunately, bad news makes better news, and people write on that. And I think people forget that behind all of that, the target is a human being. I'm also trying to make the best of whatever I have. And I work hard. I don't do these bad things to people, but people like to villainize figures and it just becomes popular to do so.

So it hurts. And I still, until now, I don't know what the right strategy is for me to deal with this. Do I then say things publicly? Do I refute it publicly? Do I also go on TikTok and make a video? What do I do to kind of kill all this untrue news?

The advice that I get from wiser people is just keep quiet. It's a long term game and you just need to prove yourself and just don't pick fights with people on social media, which that one I agree.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Talking about long-term game, you've built the in-house brand dUCk for a while now. And it's now a brand in itself that holds strong and is a big part of what the next decade is going to be about. Tell us a little bit more about your shift, frankly, to modest fashion in a large way, and what this means.

Vivy Yusof: Yeah, I love this shift because it was also nudged by my customers because we were a normal platform, neutral, and suddenly the more of the modest fashion pieces getting sold more. So the data was telling us that people were interested in modest fashion.

Maybe also is largely Malaysia, so we're Muslim majority, and Singapore and Bruni also our biggest markets. So modest fashion became a focus even during Fashion Valet days. So when I started dUCk, it was out of my personal journey of starting to wear the hijab, I started experimenting with it.

I started shopping for other brands and I just didn't find a brand that really resonated with me - very international feel, very progressive. You wanna show Muslim women as progressive, modern people who have careers, who have families, who travels, who can speak English. People think like Muslim women are so subdued and like “yes dear yes dear” kind of people.

And I didn't resonate with that. So I, myself am a strong Muslim woman, a modern one. I have friends from all over the world, and that's the part that I wanna show, that this brand speaks about those values, traveling, discovering, learning, and being one with everyone else.

I started it myself. So it became a premium modest fashion brand and we started with just scarves and we would sell out and then we would be the first brand in Malaysia to work with international names like Disney, Barbie, Starbucks, Baskin Robbins…

Sarah Chen-Spellings: I'm glad you brought this up though. You talked about your personal journey, being reflected also in your business and I sort of shared this with you and hopefully you'll get a chance to view it, but we had one of the faces of the no hijab movement right in Iran with them being forced to actually wear the hijab.

Unlike in Malaysia, many Muslim countries where women are actually, this is your choice. So can you tell us a little bit about what this means to you and why this is an important part of your business with modest fashion?

Vivy Yusof: Yeah, so modest fashion was actually nudged by our customers. Our data was telling us, a lot more people, a lot of our customers at least, are interested in modest fashion. So the scarves would sell out, the longer sleeves and the longer lengths would sell out. So I knew that, okay, when I start my own brands, I wanna go into modest fashion and it makes sense for me as well.

Cause I was also on my journey to wear the hijab. I didn't really see it as a bigger global movement or anything. It was literally just me in KL. The culture here is it's very accepted and it's very okay if you don't wear it either. So I have friends who wear it. I have friends who don't wear it. It's really your choice. So it's not anything that people force onto you.

When I wore it, I felt good. I just wanted to transition into another phase of my life as a Muslim woman, I wanted to be known as a Muslim woman. I was proud, and I just felt beautiful in it. To me, it was my choice. I wanted it, I was at a point in my life where I really wanted to do this for my own faith. It was my journey with God. To me. It was very intimate. It was just between me and him.

But because I'm public as well, started becoming a movement and suddenly people were also interested in wearing the hijab as well. And I'm like, okay, I guess good for you, like if you want to also own it as a Muslim woman. It’s only when I started going overseas wearing the hijab, because this is after Uni and all that, I started feeling a little bit different.

I went to the US because I wore the hijab. They put me in a room after security, they put me in another room and I'm like, what did I do? Do I look like I could harm people? I'm like this tiny little girl. And my husband got out, but I got stuck in, they just wanted to watch me. So I felt a little… I guess it's different in other parts of the world. So only then I started realizing that different cultures see it differently, right? So for me, honestly, it's just my journey with God and I wanna do this.

Interesting enough, it became my business. So it just so happened that I started with scarfs category, but I quickly grew it. When I saw traction of the brand, I quickly grew into cosmetics. I grew into apparel, I grew into bags. So now we're actually a modest fashion lifestyle. instead of hijab brand.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: And Vivy, if I may pause you there, because as mentioned, we have an American and a global audience. What does it mean to you, being able to display yourself with the hijab?

When you say it's a personal relationship, I think it helps with our understanding of what this relationship is all about it and why this is important to you and so many others around the world.

Vivy Yusof: Yeah, I think it's unique to me because I started learning more about my religion. I think this is the spiritual part of me and spirituality is so personal, and you can't fault people for losing their own paths, right?

So for me, I learned more, I relearned about my religion. I found it so beautiful. Like it really asked people to respect others. There's so much love. Love for neighbors, love for other people, doing a lot of charity, and there's nowhere in there that teaches me all these things that the media making up, about violence and all this, nothing, nothing in there.

So I think it's such a misconception in the bigger world about Islam and for me, I feel like it's my responsibility then to kind of make it - wear the hijab, show that you're a muslim, make a business, be a millionaire… This walk the talk. Don't just talk the talk. I think that's what differentiates me from everyone else in the larger world. When I go to conferences now, sometimes I'm the only one in hijab; when I went to BOF for example, the gala, I was like one of the only ones in hijab.

And I feel like that's so beautiful cause it makes me different and it gives me an edge too, and I have this deeper connection with my faith. So I feel like it's a win-win. And I love wearing it, and I think it is a choice. I don't judge people. I don't judge Muslim women who don't wear it. That's their choice too. So, everyone's journey in faith, it's their own path, their own timing.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Yeah. And of course for your investors, it is a huge target market that’s growing. Tell us a little bit about, I mean there is Taqwa Tech, it's all the rage now in Southeast Asia.

Tell us a little bit more about what you are seeing and what you're excited about with the business in the next.

Vivy Yusof: Yeah, so modest fashion is like only a 300 billion dollar market. And the best part is it's still a blue ocean there. It's not a red sea yet, so I feel like there isn't one, big brand like Zara or H&M or Uniqlo, that really owns the modest fashion space. And that's where I'm dreaming to be.

I really wanna see our brand grow globally, becoming a household name in big cities. To me, it's not just about Muslim women, it's also anyone who wants to dress modesty. Not everyone wants to show skin, women respect each other for our own choices. So there are a lot of women who feel more comfortable showing less skin and lose their clothes. And I think that's the beauty of it. I just wanna give people more choices.

And modest fashion that isn't one global brand that has made it through all regions. Like how some of them, the more mainstream fashion brands have. So to me, I'm like, why not? There are 2 billion Muslims in the world, half of them are women, every one of them needs a prayer wear because we need to pray five times a day. That's what we've been taught.

Every one of them would have to go to a wedding or a religious gathering and they need to wear kebaya or like a shawl, at least one in their closet. So I'm like, why is this not being sold in Oxford Street? Or anywhere in the US?

Like, why is there no store that makes it easy for us to get them when it is a necessity for 1 billion people? So to me I'm like, that's a space I wanna go and I wanna be in. And of course the dream is there, but to get there is not a straight path, it's like a roundabout or a rollercoaster. And I'm realizing that it's not as easy as it sounds. But I love that because that's the challenge.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Yeah. So as you enter your next decade, having done your reflections, which actually your book forced you to do that, to really grapple with the good, bad, and ugly.

What were some of your mistakes that you felt in your last decade, some of your toughest mistakes that you definitely will want to do differently in this next decade?

Vivy Yusof: For sure, listening to my gut feelings. I doubt myself a little bit too much there, but you're the one doing the business, so actually you know best, not anyone else.

Second, I think I would do international expansion differently. I think we were too foolish and too overconfident with our last business model, that we are like let's just go and figure it out. And then it gets expensive to go into other markets. So I would do that a bit more carefully this time.

And do a softer approach and get traction and then go big instead of going big and then hoping traction will come. I would do that differently. I'm also at a point where I'm learning how to manage managers rather than doing it myself.

Not to say less hands on, but I want to empower experienced managers to help me lead so that we can go together. So I'm at a point where I'm finding my own kind of leadership way. So yeah a lot of mistakes and learnings that I am hoping to apply in my next decade.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Yeah. And we look forward to that. With what you've built over the last couple of years, the good, bad, and ugly, I think has certainly left the legacy. Vivy, we're so excited for your next chapter.

Now we've covered a lot of ground, and I usually end with a quick fire round. So billion dollar questions, quick questions, no context, and you just have to say the first thing that comes to mind. Okay? Are you ready?

Money or power?

Vivy Yusof: Money.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Fame or fortune?

Vivy Yusof: Fortune.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Highest high?

Vivy Yusof: God, so many. I think this, I wrote a book.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: All right, lowest low?

Vivy Yusof: Pivoting and realizing that the dream that you had was not doable.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: What are you now watching on Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, whatever you're watching?

Vivy Yusof: I just finished watching Harry and Megan.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Oh, and we have thoughts on that. We have thoughts on that. This is a separate show!

Vivy Yusof: Another episode!

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Your favorite book?

Vivy Yusof: Favorite book right now I think it's Bob Iger’s The Ride of A Lifetime. It's like picking your favorite child. Look!

Sarah Chen-Spellings: And I love how color coordinated, it's beautiful. . . Okay, so Bob Iger it is. Going on, going twice.

Vivy Yusof: All right. Him.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Advice for your younger self, what you wish you knew when you were younger.

Vivy Yusof: Oh, um. To just listen to your gut and just try, because I think my fear now is not trying because I've done it, I've done the failures and I'm still here, so I guess I'm no longer scared of failures because it doesn't kill you. So I'm more scared of not trying than failing.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Wow, okay. So you have four kids now. I hear maybe a fifth?

Vivy Yusof: No way!

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Okay. So you have four kids, three principals you want your kids to live by?

Vivy Yusof: Oh my God. To be humble. To not be afraid of trying and to always listen to your mother.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Is that a principle? Okay. We will take that. Okay and finally, um, what is the legacy that Vivy Yusof will leave behind?

Vivy Yusof: Vivy Yusof wants to leave a legacy of telling the young people to live with sincerity. So whatever you do, do it with sincerity, whether it's work, whether it's love, whether it's, whatever you do, do it with love and sincerity so that you find joy in everything that you do, and that you also have no regrets because you've given your all.

So even if something fails, It's fine because I tried my best, I gave my all, and I enjoyed myself thoroughly. So I think I just want to remind people to just not take themselves too seriously and to just live their best life.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Love that. And with that, Vivy I think that was a powerful note to leave on. It gave me chills a little bit. And I'm excited for the legacy that I know you will build and all that will come from it. So thank you so much for taking time.

Vivy Yusof: Thank you. It was so nice talking to you.

Sarah Chen-Spellings: Yeah. And where can we find your book? Where can we find you? If people wanna go and find out more about you, where can we do that?

Vivy Yusof: Yeah, so follow me on Instagram. I'm very active on Instagram @VivyYusof and I wrote a book. So this book is gonna be worldwide distribution. So wherever you are, I hope it'll be in all your major bookstores.